Talk:John Wick: Chapter 2

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SO MUCH YES --PyramidHead (talk) 21:24, 6 October 2016 (EDT)

I KNOW!!! Excalibur01 (talk) 10:43, 7 October 2016 (EDT)
The hype is real!--AnActualAK47 (talk) 20:44, 8 October 2016 (EDT)
And then there's me: I think the film looks generic.--SeanWolf (talk) 21:17, 8 October 2016 (EDT)
It really is, but it's not how original a story can be. The best thing you can do to a generic type of character is to have pretty good acting and for us here, awesome gun play and John Wick is awesome at the gun play. Excalibur01 (talk) 16:59, 12 October 2016 (EDT)

So, any special reason he's using some fancy Glock and AR-15 from a company no one has heard of? Why not give him his old P30 and HK416 back? Why do armorers keep buying overpriced Glocks with fancy aftermarket parts?--Mandolin (talk) 23:35, 8 October 2016 (EDT)

Taran Tactical isn't an unknown company. It might not be as famous or infamous as Salient, but it's known enough in some circles. They also trained Will Smith for Suicide Squad. Excalibur01 (talk) 11:11, 9 October 2016 (EDT)
I'm pretty sure Keanu Reeves trained with them for the movie.--Quarax (talk) 00:35, 9 October 2016 (EDT)
I've heard somewhere that Keanu Reeves has some sort of share in Taran Tactical. --Aidoru (talk) 01:12, 13 October 2016 (EDT)
Yep. They even had a contest perfect for us.--Quarax (talk) 00:39, 9 October 2016 (EDT)
Here's the same videoon youtube for those who loathe facebook. Anyway, i think those tacticooled glocks sorta fit in a silly movie like John Wick. Then again, the only other movies where i've ever seen these types of pimped guns are the Transformers movies and 13 hours.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 09:23, 9 October 2016 (EDT)
It makes a sort of sense in a way of people of expensive groups will buy expensive things, including guns if need be. Excalibur01 (talk) 09:59, 10 October 2016 (EDT)
One of the unseen henchmen on the poster (on the right) appears to be holding a P30L with the same compensator from the first film. --Sergeant Simpleton (talk) 11:00, 9 October 2016 (EDT)

Here's another vid of him training with Aaron Cohen, Excalibur01 (talk) 17:00, 12 October 2016 (EDT)


Poster Weapons

The film's first official poster features several firearms: a sawed-off Remington 870, a Heckler & Koch P30L (fitted with the same compensator from the first film), a Beretta 92FS, two Beretta 92FS Inoxes, two Beretta 90Twos, and several customized Colt M1911 variants (one of which is obviously a replica with a visible parting line).

Please help ID

Please help ID this launcher. --Ben41 (talk) 14:30, 19 December 2016 (EST)

JW2 304.jpg
JW2 305.jpg
Looks like an ARWEN 37 to me.--BlackHawk510 (talk) 15:09, 19 December 2016 (EST)
It was definitely an ARWEN 37, even got to see the loading process. --Insertjjs (talk) 07:39, 13 February 2017 (EST)


Looks like the Glock that was used in this film is currently on display at SHOT Show:

Lynx (talk) 12:05, 19 January 2017 (EST)

Cool--AnActualAK47 (talk) 12:38, 19 January 2017 (EST)
Apparently he's also carrying a Taran Glock 26 too, if Glock themselves are to be believed.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 10:07, 27 January 2017 (EST)
There's a short clip ad of the scene where John Wick talks to the gun guy about what gun recommendations. He suggested a Glock 34, a Glock 26 as well as an "AR-15" and Benelli M4 Excalibur01 (talk) 10:57, 27 January 2017 (EST)
Got a link to that clip?--AnActualAK47 (talk) 11:36, 27 January 2017 (EST)
I've been trying to look for it, but it only appears as an ad every time I watch a Youtube vid. Excalibur01 (talk) 14:28, 27 January 2017 (EST)

Nevermind. Found it Excalibur01 (talk) 14:29, 27 January 2017 (EST)

That's neat. I guess all those guns have some Taran tactical thing going on with them...--AnActualAK47 (talk) 15:18, 27 January 2017 (EST)



Grabbed a couple more shots of the armory from the trailer. Does anyone know what the rifles that are hanging horizontally are? I can't place them, and it's bugging me. --Lynx (talk) 11:45, 3 February 2017 (EST)

Beretta AR70/90?--AgentGumby (talk) 12:16, 3 February 2017 (EST)
Yep, seems like a AR70/90--Flavio (talk) 13:56, 3 February 2017 (EST)
Looks like the 90 to be specific.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 14:31, 3 February 2017 (EST)
In Picture #1 I see several Glock 17s on the top shelf and what looks like a Glock 17L on the very far right. The shelf below that has a compact SIG P220 series handgun (not sure which), a VP9, and two empty spots which is likely where John got his two Glocks below. The one below that has two Beretta 92 handguns, and another that I can't identify (looked kind of like a compact Walther P99 or Springfield XD but I don't think it is.) The bottom shelf is mostly unidentifiable but the one on the furthest right looks kind of like a HK Mark 23 to me. Leaning against that shelf is an M79. The right most shelf has more Glock 17s, two two-tone SIG-Sauer P226s, and a Beretta 93R. There's another 93R and a Px4 on the one below that.
In Picture #2 I see MP5Ks, two of which have compensators attached and several Uzis/Mini-Uzis. To the right of those are a bunch of MP5s, some of which have Surefire lights installed. Can't identify the shotguns, sadly.

--Sergeant Simpleton (talk) 21:02, 3 February 2017 (EST)

There's also a Beretta PM12 in between the MP5Ks and Uzis. Most of the guns on the bottom are hard to ID, but there's a couple of obvious M4/M16 variants.--Lynx (talk) 10:58, 5 February 2017 (EST)
Two of those tall shotguns are Benelli M4s, and it looks like there are two SG553s behind them, in addition to regular Beretta AR 70s.--AgentGumby (talk) 11:47, 5 February 2017 (EST)

Just saw it

So let me start by saying that if you're a fan of the first, chances are you'll love this one, I did. The action was beautifully choreographed and shot, and the world of the continental was expanded upon really well. Now for the guns I saw. Bear with me because the movie moved really fast and a lot of guns were used, but this is what I remember.

-HK P30L - Same gun from the first movie, used by John in the opening fight briefly. Later seen buried under John's floor.

-Kel-Tech KSG - Seen briefly being buried underneath John's floor in the beginning.

-Coharie Arms CA-415 - Buried alongside the KSG and another gun I couldn't identify.

-Glock 26 - Also seen alongside the P30L being buried.

-ARWEN 37 - Used by Santino in the beginning of the film. Portrayed as an explosive grenade launcher.

-Glock 34 - Main sidearm used by John in Rome, Had either the TTI or Salient modification. It was specifically referred to as the Glock 34 by "The Sommelier" (armorer). He also mentioned it's Austrian roots as well as the German roots of the P30.

-Glock 27 - Also used by John in Rome. Also provided by The Sommelier. It may have been a Glock 26 but I seem to remember him calling it the 27, I could be wrong though. Used in a fistfight with Cassien.

-Benelli M4 - Also used by John in Rome. Also provided by The Sommelier. Referred to by name and it's Italian roots are directly mentioned.

-TTI TR-1 - Final weapon used by John in Rome (I believe). Once again, provided by The Sommelier. He refers to it as an AR-15, and the specifications of it's attachments were mentioned but unfortunately I cannot remember them. Also appears to be used by Ares men in the final battle

-Kimber Warrior - Used by John as well as countless other assassins including Ares (Ruby Rose). Seen in both suppressed and unsuppressed modes, both of which are used by John. The Bowery King (Laurence Fishburne) provides one to John before the climax. He specifically refers to it as a "Kimber 1911" and also mentions it's seven round capacity, which also annoys John. The final gun John handles in the film.

-Grey Glock? - Used by Cassien (Common) while pursuing John through New York. Appeared to be a grey Colored Glock with a matching grey suppressor. Could be a custom gun or could be something entirely different, I didn't get a clear look at it.

-Various handguns - Used by multiple assassins attempting to kill John in New York. Appeared to be an assortment of Glocks, Kimbers, and HKs in suppressed and unsuppressed forms. Didn't get a clear view of them. John procures many of them from the assassins he kills throughout.

-Beretta Cheetah - Appeared to be used by one of The Bowery King's men who saves John. Seen suppressed. Also used, unsuppressed, by Santino D'Antonio (Riccardo Scamarcio)

-Bowery King arsenal - Various weapons, many the same as seen earlier in the film, however I did notice what appeared to be an RPG-7 in one of the racks.

-Glock 17 - Carried by nearly all of Santino's men. Multiple are used by John in the finale, with him procuring a new one every time he runs out of ammo in the previous one.

-Sig SG 550 and 552 - Used by Ares' men in the finale. Some appeared to lack rear iron sights.

Thats about it. Cassien used a handgun during his fight with John in Rome, but I never got a clear view of it. Also in the finale Ares's men used a collection of AR-15s and I believe a few SMGs. I couldn't quite tell what models the SMGs were, however they appeared to be HKs and also lacked rear iron sights, though I could just be rememebering the Sigs and imagining that they used SMGs (Quite likely to be honest, It was a late showing and I'm fairly tired). I'm sure I missed several guns, as like I said this was a gun heavy movie, however i will comment that many of the same models appeared repeatedly, probably props being reused. Both The Bowery King and The Sommelier had large arsenals with numerous guns I was unable to Identify. Sorry for missing some things, the movie moved at a breakneck pace and I didn't always have time to appreciate the action on screen and notice what guns we're being used.--One shot is all it takes. (talk) 05:09, 10 February 2017 (EST)

The Sommelier mentions that Wick's AR-15 has a Trijicon Accupoint, but I don't remember him specifying the exact model. Also, regarding The Sommeliers arsenal, I believe the rifles in the background are Beretta AR70/90's.--Aidoru (talk) 17:43, 13 February 2017 (EST)

I just saw it and I am pretty sure Cassien's grey glock was actually an Arsenal Strike One, It had a distinctive step down forward of the ejection port. You get a short but clear view of it when Cassien does an ammo check in the subway shootout. --Insertjjs (talk) 14:34, 12 February 2017 (EST)

We also need a photo of TTI's Glock 34 Excalibur01 (talk) 15:23, 14 February 2017 (EST)

They showed them off at the SHOT Show
TTI Glock 34
TTI Glock 26

Also there was a picture (cut away drawing?) of a H&K MG4 with a G36 Hensoldt AG Sight/carrying handle in Laurence Fishburne's office.

--Insertjjs (talk) 15:40, 15 February 2017 (EST)

The 1911 that Ares uses is a S&W 1911 either a PD or an SC model I'm leaning towards a PD full size. Also the gun John uses at the very end seems to be some kind of Kimber with a custom compensator. Serpico1911 (talk 03:38, 15 February 2017 (CST)

Finally got to see it. To think they weren't going to show this movie in sweden! Thank god they did! It blew my dick off! Liked alot of things in it, but one thing that stood out to me was that i've never seen an action movie like this were the main character reloads as often as he does. Also, don't know if this is the case, but i watched this with a friend and he counted that in the Museum scene (when Wick is switching between guns left and right) he only shot the various pistols he picked up ten times before they ran out.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 18:07, 24 February 2017 (EST)
Just saw it too, my jaw hit the floor when Keanu did the Killing Floor 2 style one-handed brass check on a 1911 before entering the hall of mirrors towards the end.--AgentGumby (talk) 01:31, 25 February 2017 (EST)
The only other movie ive seen someone do that style of brass check before is The way of the gun. Can't think of any movie where someone brass checked guns as often as this one--AnActualAK47 (talk) 16:28, 25 February 2017 (EST)
Only movies that come to mind for brass checking is pretty much anything by Michael Mann, particularly Heat, but not as much as this film. Bristow8411 (talk) 18:29, 25 February 2017 (EST)

I'd say that Ares's pistol is a SW1911SC variant. I say this because we get a good look at the slide a few times, and it has the particular slide serrations of the SC series of SW1911's. It also seemed to have a black slide, but a stainless steel frame, but I could be wrong, saw the film last night. Loved it.--Bauer2121 (talk) 13:05, 26 February 2017 (EST)


I'm pretty sure that the 1911 used by Ares is a S&W. I remember in one shot you could clearly see the extractor and the fish scale type serrations. I can't recall exactly what happened, but after John beats Ares to a pulp, he takes her 1911, but later when he's at the continental and shoots that guy with it, the 1911 he used is some variant with a compensator. Unless she was carrying two different 1911s, this might be a continuity error.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 12:19, 2 March 2017 (EST)

Your right. I remember watching this a second time that Ares had a suppressor on hers and clearly no compensator so...either a deleted scene or he just got a completely different 1911. I remember he frisked Ares for a spare mag and reloaded it since it was empty but when he used it at the Continental, it locked back, meaning he had fired all but one round so...I think there must be a deleted scene involved or something or just bad continuity, which is surprising for a movie like this. Excalibur01 (talk) 15:46, 2 March 2017 (EST)

Other than the final scene where we know for a fact that it's a Kimber 1911 as we can plainly see, I think all other 1911s should be in a separate section under 1911. Cassian's 1911, Ares' and the one John used in the subway fight Excalibur01 (talk) 15:58, 2 March 2017 (EST)

Yeah, lumping the S&W 1911 together with the Kimber is just confusing.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 16:27, 2 March 2017 (EST)

I have a pic. that could be from the supposed deleted scene but not sure how to upload the photo to here if anyone could help with that. Serpico1911 (talk 00:37, 4 March 2047 (CST)

On the left side of the screen, Toolbox, Upload File.--Mandolin (talk) 05:46, 4 March 2017 (EST)
FB IMG 1487413440638.jpg
FB IMG 1488634970915.jpg

Serpico1911 (talk 07:41, 4 March 2017 (CST)

Smith and Wesson SW1911 E-Series?

SW1911SC E series stainless slide.jpg

--Mandolin (talk) 18:26, 4 March 2017 (EST)

I have found what resembles the compensated reversed two-tone 1911 John used in the final scene. As far as I can see, the grips are unique to the Kimber Team Match II and I couldn't find any other after market grips that looks like it. Take a look at the screencap I took from youtube below (sorry for low quality).

Kimber Team Match II.jpg
Note the grips and the black ambi safety. The markings on the slide are missing, though.

Still, we have to wait until the DVD is released to be able to correctly Identify it. --Kliwher (talk) 21:40, 6 May 2017 (EST)

OK, got an update on the compensated 1911 it is definitely not a Kimber, it has slanted rear serrations, no front serrations, black controls, slide cuts, wood and rubber/plastic hybrid grips, and bushing compensator. It is also loaded with 10-round magazine.
--Kliwher (talk) 20:34, 11 June 2017 (EST)

The Custom AR-15

The Sommelier refers to the Taran Tactical AR-15 as "11.5" inch - assuming he's referring to the barrel length, that can't be right surely? It looks much longer than that - closer to a regular size, 14.5 inch M4, if not longer. Am I seeing things, or did someone make a mistake? --Stickie (talk) 23:17, 28 May 2017 (EDT)

I sent a message to TTI to confirm, but it could be an 11.5 in barrel with a big compensator that's throwing off the overall length. Excalibur01 (talk) 14:47, 5 June 2017 (EDT)

Shooting like a 3 gunner

Is it me or compared to the nightclub scene from the first movie and the Vania scene in this one, John either tac reloads his gun and then shoots until he's out of bullets and out of spare mags while in this movie, I counted, he shot roughly half a mag, barely with those TTI extensions before dumping the mags entirely, most likely still with a lot of bullets and then retrieving a fresh mag from basically an unlimited supply unlike the first movie where he had a very limited amount. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's got 4 spare mags PLUS a spare AR mag...that's still not enough mags for the many reloads he did with his Glock. Compared to the first movie on how he reloads his pistol, it looks like the habits from competition target shooting (the idea to just dump your mag and get a fresh one, regardless of how many rounds are left) were carried over to this movie. The only time he didn't constantly reload his gun is during the final shootout where he kept picking up guns after emptying a new one he picks up. Excalibur01 (talk) 14:16, 5 June 2017 (EDT)

I also question why a shotgun? He could of hid caches of extra AR mags all along his escape route. It's very cool how he worked the M4, but it illustrates how he ran out of ammo quick and had to do reloads more often than if he had hidden more AR mags. It even showed that during his quick reloads, he was exposed. I wonder why Taran Butler didn't teach him a more combat reloading technique like chambering a shell and loading the rest with the thing tucked under instead of over the shoulder that's more akin to competition shooting. I bet if the prop guys also sourced High Threat Concealment, they could of had John wearing a metal plate under his shirt and get one of their magnetic chest carriers for AR mags and just slap it on, giving him more rounds Excalibur01 (talk) 14:16, 5 June 2017 (EDT)

To add more, I'm looking at the final fight in the mirror room (reminded me of something from a Bond movie and a Bruce Lee movie, especially with the villain taunt). There were multiple chances for him to pick up a long gun or additional handguns when his 1911 ran empty, but he didn't even though he had plenty of time. Also before entering the mirror room, he reloaded his 1911, which was good because the holster he's wearing is most likely only for a 1911, but why didn't he pick up another Glock as his primary until it ran dry? Or stuff extra mags from the dead guy in his pocket?Excalibur01 (talk) 14:28, 5 June 2017 (EDT)

Yeah, it kinda bugged me that he didn't just bring a bag of mags along for his AR-15. You can get bandoleers or small chest rigs that hold 6 mags. And I will always consider the use of a magnifying optic in a nighttime CQB situation stupid. Worse, the entire scene was pointless. John ninjaed his way in undetected and then didn't leave the way he came. Alternatively, just carrying a subcompact he might have convinced Cassian he wasn't there to fight. Or just don't admit you're working. --Mandolin (talk) 18:02, 5 June 2017 (EDT)
Again, I go back to HTC with their magnetic chest rigs that you can just slap over your body armor plate. The movie allowed John to attach a fancy 3 gun style belt with spare shotgun shells. You're telling me, he couldn't throw on some kind of bandoleer for extra AR mags? If they really wanted him to go all out with the shotgun, he could of had a sling with shells attached to it for extra firepower. Excalibur01 (talk) 00:42, 6 June 2017 (EDT)

And yes, only in three-gun would you use a 16" carbine with a scope and side-mount red dot. Really the whole use of custom guns from TTI screams "three-gun with little real-world value". Unless I missed something, nobody actually uses angled foregrips, side-mount red dots/iron sights, or $2k in parts on a $500 pistol. And the entire point of a 16" barrel is going as short as legally possible without extra paperwork. The one three-gun accessory he didn't use but should have is a pistol red dot. They're finally at the point you can depend on them to work reliably without being too large (seriously, go look up some of the older movies on here. 80s/90s attempts at lasers and red dots are hilarious) and work better in low light and are more accurate. Oh, and buy yourself a 40 round PMag, not a mag extension. On a side note, caching a Minimi Para with an 200 round belt means no reloads and hilarious firepower.--Mandolin (talk) 18:19, 5 June 2017 (EDT)
I have actually seem some US Army training vids where there was actually an angled red dot. I've seen Marines with AFGs on their rifles. There's nothing wrong with a 1x6 power scope on your fighting rifle but that's for varied ranges outdoors. He KNEW he was gonna be fighting in the catacombs at extremely close range, so just a simple red dot would work just fine or if he really needed range, a magnifier that he can flip on and off could work. Realistically, they should have just slapped John with the same 416 clone from the first movie with a micro red dot with the same short 10.5 in barrel and he'd still perform just as well. For flare, they could of added a silencer to it. Excalibur01 (talk)

I do like the idea that he should have set up traps. Remember in Shoot'em Up where Cllve Owens basically turned an entire gun factory into an automatically shooting gallery of guns all over the place? You're telling me John fucking Wick couldn't afford some well placed claymores or grenades? I'm still harping on the M4 shotgun. It's a good gun and even ghost loading it with an extension tube. He had like what? 9 + 1 shells maybe? Couldn't the Sommelier have recommended something bolder and bigger like say a Saiga 12 or bring back the AA-12 with frag-12s? Both being magazine fed shotguns that gives you a faster reload time and higher capacity?

I mean, I understand these fantasy assassins are like fantasy knights where instead of custom designer fantasy swords of epic loot, they got custom guns. If money didn't matter, the TTI handguns are awesome, just as cool and functional as Salient or Agency Arms but to us lowly average joes, we can't afford all most of them. I've got mag extensions for my Glock and more as a fashion than practicality. There are much cheaper options for mag extensions that don't cost the price of 2 mags. The price for the TTI Pmag extensions is about the exact same price as a Pmag 40. I don't have mag extensions on any of my rifles because they are just pricey and if I really needed more rounds, I got a couple PMAG40s lying around. Excalibur01 (talk) 00:29, 6 June 2017 (EDT)

Also remember at the end of the movie, he was shooting stock guns with no fancy trigger jobs done to them and he still performed just as good. In fact, it's because he was shooting stock guns is that we aren't so distracted by the guns he's using. Excalibur01 (talk) 00:45, 6 June 2017 (EDT)

Good point about the accessories. The 1-6x would have been fine in another setting. He couldn't use his 416 this time, but any AR platform would have been fine. Giving a professional a 16" AR is kinda SOD-breaking, he has no reason to use that length. And I have no idea why they had to give John all the super cool name-brand custom stuff this time. He did just fine with stock guns in the first movie. And yeah, PMag 40 would be better than some extensions. Mini-claymores are a thing BTW.--Mandolin (talk) 19:09, 9 June 2017 (EDT)

Like I've pointed out before, I think they are going with this "fantasy assassin" world where it's more spectacular than actually realistic and when I mean fantasy, I mean stuff that real assassins really shouldn't use, like flashy weapons. I can totally see someone in RPG give gaming stats to his guns because of how special they look like if you picked up some kind of hero sword. If this was like fictional tactical, we'd be seeing him rocking NODs and an MK18 with IR lasers Excalibur01 (talk) 10:24, 12 June 2017 (EDT)
He actually fired 11 shells from the Benelli M4 before it got emptied. Also, any news about the statement of the 11.5 inch barrel for the TTI TR-1 AR-15? (pretty sure it's incorrect) --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 18:19, 25 June 2017 (EDT)
There's a decent number of PDs with 16 inch trunk rifles, but all those are going to be semi-only (but a non-government professional could totally have stolen one and tacticooled it up himself. That would be a good scene for a film). --VladVladson (talk) 19:37, 25 June 2017 (EDT)
Also, I see that someone added to the page that the Benelli can hold a maximum 7+1 shells in reality, but there are actually 10-round tubes in existence. In this regard, do they hold 9+1 shells or 10+1? ---Ultimate94ninja (talk) 07:25, 2 July 2017 (EDT)
EDIT: I think it's 9+1, so Wick fired one round more than possible. --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 06:05, 3 September 2017 (EDT)

The Catacombs

Overall I have to say I just didn't enjoy this movie as much. John isn't anywhere near as sympathetic, for one thing, and the choreography for the fights doesn't seem as good, with lots of extras reacting to getting shoot really poorly, before slowly getting back up and keeping on (the mirror fight specifically comes to mind). What really brings this home, though, is the fight in the catacombs. The idea itself doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, and on top of that it's too dark to see what's going on a lot of times. It feels more like an effort to show off Keanu Reaves's impressive three gun credentials, like the Red Circle fight was to show off how cool CAR can be, except, again, the Red Circle scene is better executed. Like the post above, I'm seriously questioning his weapon choices.

For handguns, the Glock at least sort of makes sense, although I don't get why he didn't just dig up his P30 and Glock 26 from the first film, since honestly both are much cooler weapons. For that matter, why a 17 and not an 18? Is there any reason you can't do any of the recoil compensation on a machine pistol like that, because I'd think the selective fire would be more useful as a primary weapon, which Wick seems to favor the handgun for.

I don't get the shotgun at all. The M4 is just big and despite being semiauto it's also cumbersome, especially since Wick expends at least two shells per target because of his silly habit of double tapping everyone (I'd think if you shot a man at point blank with a twelve gauge in the chest, you probably don't need to shoot him in the head too). Even with that in mind, I think a KSG (like he used in the first film) or even better, a DP-12, would be a much better choice, because of the bullpup layout. He almost loses the M4 because he corners with it and someone grabs the barrel, which wouldn't be as likely with a shorter gun; the DP has the added bonus of letting him still double tap people despite being pump action, and it's an unusual and exotic enough gun it fits him a lot more than a run of the mill M4.

The rifle is completely unnecessary. He stashes it specifically for CQB, which makes no sense given that it's got a long barrel and a semi-fixed stock; it feels very much like a medium engagement weapon which isn't what it's used for at all. It's big and cumbersome and it doesn't really feel like it's employed the way it should've been. Why not carry a carbine, like an actual M4, or a PDW like the UMP or I dunno, a P90? The last one seems the best choice for the ranges he's engaging in, since it's smaller, is going to perform comparably to the AR at the ranges he's firing (if not better, since a few times he's almost at point blank and a rifle round, so far as I know, would be more likely to over penetrate and do minimum damage), and has a higher capacity. The only real advantage an AR has over the P90 in this area is the AR is easier to reload, but the P90 has almost twice the capacity, so reloading wouldn't be as big a deal. Plus, I want to see John Wick tactically reload one, so I have some idea how you actually accomplish that.

In all, I feel like the Glock is reasonable, the M4 is a adequate, and the AR is a poor choice. If nothing else, I can see justifying the AR for potential ranged engagements (and Wick, to the films' credit, seems to eschew automatic weapons) but I'd dump the M4 in favor of something more practical, like a P90 or MP7 (for flexibility's sake). The M4's only real advantage over either is it can be used as a club in CQC when it's empty, which isn't really an advantage at all since it highlights the weapon's low capacity, cumbersome size, and awkward reloading process. Anyone agree?--That's the Way It's Done (talk) 20:15, 7 August 2017 (EDT)

I don't think he could "dig up" his old weapons from the first film because his house got blown up by Santino, which would probably make that a wee bit difficult. I also think his AR does have a carbine length barrel if I recall correctly, and there isn't any real difference if he was using an "M4" in semi-auto versus an AR15.--AgentGumby (talk) 00:49, 8 August 2017 (EDT)
The Glock and P30 are both under concrete in the basement, while Santino only destroyed the house down to its foundations, so there's no reason to think anything below that would've been damaged. I still think the AR just by nature was a poor choice even so, since he doesn't really have any reason to be carrying a rifle in that situation. By "long barrel" I mean it's still a rifle: it's still big and hard to corner with. --That's the Way It's Done (talk) 00:03, 9 August 2017 (EDT)
A P90 is a pretty poor choice, mostly because of the round. It's been shown to not be much of a man stopper and would need to dumb several rounds into someone to be as effective as a full rifle round, same with the MP7. These are very specialized guns meant for certain situations, not a full blown fire fight in reality, especially the MP7. An AR is a pretty ideal weapon, but in the catacombs, he really should have gotten a shorter weapon. His 416 looking weapon was an actual 10.5 inch barrel rifle. That's pretty good for close quarters. Taran Tactical, the company that designed the weapon, did make a shorter barrel gun that was shown in The Fate of the Furious. He really did not needed a scope underground and in close quarters. He should have gotten more mags stashed away for the AR since it was much more effective than the slower firing and less capacity shotgun he got. Most likely they gave him these guns is because he trained to hell with them in the video. He used the exact same set up in those training videos and that's why all his moves are very competition style, which I had pointed out. The slide in his Glock did not lock back once during the initial fight and he was not retaining partially empty mags and seemed to have an endless supply of them compared to the first movie where he actually ran out of ammo during the Red Circle fight. I think it was discussed before where there's a ton of options for a cheap mag carrier where he can just throw on during the chaos and have several more mags to feed his AR.

I think an MPX would have been a good choice as a secondary gun over the shotgun he decided on. He did train with the MPX, at least a longer barreled on in the vids, but he could totally use the shorter barrel on and go to town. It really wouldn't be heard for him to put a Magpul D60 for his AR and then switch to Pmags Excalibur01 (talk) 00:47, 11 August 2017 (EDT)

Actually, he didn't have THAT much of ammo supply for the Glock. He reloads two times in the party, and then fires 13 rounds (after that he ejects the magazine, checks the ammo and loads it back before entering the catacombs). Then in the catacombs, he must have fired 9 rounds (or 8 if it's Ares who unintentionally shot her own henchman lol); assuming he didn't previously reload, that's 22 rounds (or 21); I'm not sure what capacity the particular extended baseplate is supposed to give to the G34, though. He reloads afterwards, and then (also assuming he doesn't reload between using the AR-15 and the Benelli) he fires exactly 22 rounds. He must have reloaded off-screen when he exited the catacombs since he fires around 13 rounds when Cassian arrives with his car. That would be reasonably 4 spare mags. Weird thing though, is that before falling down the stairs, Wick tried to run away despite the fact that he had AMPLE time to draw his backup Glock 26. --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 09:34, 17 August 2017 (EDT)
EDIT: The TTI website indicates the availability of Glock +3/4 and +5/6 base pads (the former adds 4 extra rounds in 9x19mm and 3 in .40 ACP, while the latter adds 6 in 9x19mm and 5 in .40 ACP). With the latter, it would be reasonably 23+1 rounds for the Glock 34. --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 06:05, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
The P90 and MP7 are by definition designed for CQC so I'm not really sure where you're getting they'd be bad for close quarters (if a personal defensive weapon isn't good for close up, what exactly do you do with it?). From what I've gathered (and this is why SWAT teams, the FBI, and the Secret Service use P90s and MP5s instead of M4s for breaching) a rifle round is far more likely to pass right through someone in close quarters without actually delivering enough lethal force to drop them. This is something you don't want for a number of reasons: if you're a cop you run the risk of that round going on to kill someone you didn't actually mean to shoot, and for John Wick, you run the risk of shooting someone several times and not actually killing them. Black Hawk Down mentions the Rangers having this problem during the Battle of Mogadishu, and they were engaging the Somalis at more logical ranges. Plus, he makes it a point of shooting everyone at least twice (usually once in the leg or chest and then in the head) so arguing against the PDW because he'd have to shoot someone more than once is anti intuitive, since he was doing that anyway, and at least with the PDWs he also would've had considerably more rounds at his disposal before he needed to reload. I do agree with you, though; his weaponset here is very clearly to showcase Keanu Reeves' badass three-gun skills, but given how poorly choreographed the scene itself is, if anything it feels more like an example of "this is how not to fight in CQC" than anything else. For the ranges he was shooting at most of the time, he would've probably been okay with just the Glock, and then maybe the M4 Super 90 for longer ranges. --That's the Way It's Done (talk) 21:56, 16 August 2017 (EDT)
Actually, the trend for the passed decade is away from SMGs of any kind in favor of assault rifles because they fire a larger and more potent round.

Going on a tangent here. Forgive me.

The problem with the P90 and even the MP7 is they were developed with the then current mindset and ammunition technology. You mention the Secret Service but even though they also use MP5s and P90s, that's more for firepower offered by a small package than actual effectiveness of the round it shoots as in full auto shooting of a bunch of bullets at something. Think about it. PDW rounds vs a 55.6 are smaller caliber, uses a lighter bullet, has a lower velocity, lower energy and has a lower sectional density. To be as effective as a 5.56, you would need to dump a bunch of rounds onto a target. All of these properties suggest that the PDW rounds will be more prone to drop and wind drift than the 5.56mm and have a more curved trajectory and longer flight time. This suggests a lower hit probability. The terminal effects of these rounds is also likely to be less than the 5.56mm, given that both rounds have considerably less energy and momentum at the muzzle than the 5.56mm has. Comparatively, a 9mm is actually more powerful than any PDW round, especially against unarmored targets unlike how PDWs are designed to penetrate body armor. Their purpose and energy is meant for getting passed the body armor and everything else is secondary, despite what advertisements have shown you. Remember, there is no off switch when you shoot a man in real life. We can add that to movie cliche, but in real life, getting shot even center pass is not what stops you and considering that John Wick likes to shoot people in the head, it kinda doesn't matter what caliber he's shooting because the character is so perfect at making effective kill shots.

Your brought up Blackhawk down, but remember the military uses FMJs that are general ok against most people despite the stigma surrounding it. Any type of bullet less than a 50is gonna have a problem against drug crazed fiends and savage fighters. It doesn't matter if you shoot a 5.56 with JHPs or a .45 out of a UMP. If the guy's rampaging towards you, it isn't like the movies where 1 shot to the chest from the big boy round would stop them, let alone a round that's much smaller, faster but designed to fly straight through heavy things like armor than soft things like flesh.

If you want a close range anti-body armor weapon why buy a new weapon and round that doesn't perform as well as the weapons and rounds that you have already? The argument that the PDWs are shorter than an assault rifle doesn't hold when there are so many short-barreled versions of assault rifles on the market. There are also 5.56mm weapons of similar size to a Machine Pistol and capable of being fired one handed even. In addition to using a more effective and widely available round there are other advantages to using 5.56mm, such as the weapon having exactly the same controls as the rifle the Soldier did his basic training with. The argument that PDWs are lighter can also be questioned given that there are rifles on the market that weigh only 4lb with a 16” barrel. Many 5.56 assault rifles only weigh a pound or so more than the MP-7 or P90 yet fire rounds with around four times the muzzle energy, greater penetration and greater terminal effectiveness.

For the role that the PDWs were supposedly designed for, the defense of support troops, the P90 and MP-7 are inferior to a 5.56mm carbine. 5.56mm carbines of similar weight and bulk to the P90 and MP-7 already exist. As CQB weapons against unarmored targets the MP-7 and P90 are inferior in performance to 9x19mm, .45ACP and 5.56mm weapons. Whether a weapon with such a low level of incapacitation can legitimately be called a defensive weapon is debatable.

As a CQB weapon against armored targets the MP-7 and P90 are inferior to 5.56mm weapons.

An argument that has been made is that the lighter weight of the 4.6mm ammo reduces the soldier's load. A MP-7 and six 40rd magazines weighs less than a 5.56mm rifle and six 30rd magazines. Less weight and a third more ammo sounds pretty good.

The flaw in this argument is the assumption that ammo expenditure for 4.6mm and 5.56mm will be the same.

Be it a video game or real life psychologically you tend to keep shooting a target until it goes down or demonstrates that it is out of the fight in some other way (Known charmingly as “F3” or “Fire till the F**ker Falls”).

Given the very large difference in terminal effects between these two rounds I'd say it is highly probable that the 4.6mm shooter is going to fire more rounds at a given target than 5.56mm, especially if the low-recoil automatic capabilities of the MP-7 are used. The target will take longer to fall, so the shooter will keep firing for longer.

Exterior ballistics also are a concern. All its physical characteristics suggest that for shots other than a close range the 4.6mm will be more prone to drop, wind drift and have a longer time of flight and more curved trajectory than 5.56mm. All of that seems to suggest decreased hit probability and a higher expenditure of ammo per target.

The MP7 gunner will probably need twice as many rounds as a 5.56mm rifleman and twice as many would be a very conservative estimate. I wouldn't be surprised if MP7 users end up firing three to four times as much ammo per target.

The P90 and MP-7 are weapons that many members of the military and police are interested in. Claims that the 5.7mm and 4.6mm rounds are superior to those of older weapons do not seem to be borne out by either the manufacturer's own data on the rounds or by testing. These rounds are inferior to the 5.56mm in all respects and 5.56mm weapons exist to fill any niche that the P90 and MP-7 can. The very small levels of permanent damage that these rounds inflict makes them a very questionable choice for many of the applications. The possible medical complications that may arise from the difficulty of treating these wounds may also be a concern.

A lot of people want P90s or MP-7s in their armory. FN and HK are pushing the products hard. Web pages and Reviews sing their praises and some impressive claims are made for the performance of these rounds but the data and testing tell as different story.

These weapons appear to have no military role that cannot be better met by other weapons. How can it be justified to adopt a weapon system that offers no advantage over current and alternate systems?

Also, just because "insert group" uses this weapon, does not mean it is the best for the job because the people that approve and purchase said weapons might not fully understand the system and did their own research but instead got lured in by advertisements. Excalibur01 (talk) 11:03, 17 August 2017 (EDT)

Going back to the Catacombs, I'm still going with what I said before that John Wick should have used a rifle similar to his 416 clone from the first movie and firing in bursts to push back the enemy as he retreats. Yes, he's John fucking Wick, a man who can take everyone out in the room, but the situation really called for a short rifle and tactics that should have been more military than 3-gun target range shooting. In the first movie, he not only took on more guys after he burned the church vault, but he effectively kept their heads down and suppressed them until one guy had the bright idea of throwing a car at him. Excalibur01 (talk) 11:29, 17 August 2017 (EDT)

Also, strange is that if he was fully expecting a fight in the catacombs, why did he not put his big guns at the entrance after he escaped Cassian? He basically walked away casually back into the catacombs. He knew ahead of time that they were gonna burn him and brought some bigger guns than his Glock but didn't think hiding his rifle at the entrance before he ran into Ares was a good idea? Excalibur01 (talk) 11:29, 17 August 2017 (EDT)

My main argument in favor for the PDWs was due to size; stopping power is a factor but given all the times he's struggling with both his long guns (especially that M4, which is a really poor choice for what he's doing) I have to say having a smaller gun wouldn't have been remiss. There's also the fact Wick reliably shoots everyone twice, whether it's with the Glocks, the P30, the M4, or the AR. Doesn't matter what gun he's carrying, doesn't matter how close he is, he's gonna double tap. Ergo, a big cumbersome rifle only capable of holding 30+1 rounds and a big, cumbersome shotgun capable of holding at most barely a double digit's worth of shells is automatically going to require more reloading than a PDW capable of carrying at least 40+1 rounds. Remember, Wick shoots everyone twice, so his ammunition consumption is going to be the same for every weapon he uses; therefore, going for compact, high capacity weapons would be a lot more practical than carrying big weapons completely ill-suited for CQC. The AR, given his shooting tendencies, can kill reliably 15 guys, assuming he completely empties his magazine (which he never does), while the M4 can reliably kill less than ten. The MP7, on the other hand, could drop at least 20, and the P90 could be expected to dispatch 25 enemies, assuming he emptied the weapon; this is fairly close to the number of people he kills during the shootout. As far as the inferiority of the PDW rounds, remember, Wick's weapon of choice is a regular 9x19mm handgun, a round a lot of .45 cultists and other Luddites will insist exists purely for target-shooting; however in the world of John Wick, this is a completely viable primary weapon, capable of getting you through the fight in just about every situation (Wick spends more time shooting 9mms than any other caliber, remember). Given the way the films are made, we could expect Wick to fire no more than two rounds per enemy, and those two rounds to be enough to dispatch that enemy. The more I think about it, the less I think actual ballistics have much to do with how these films are made. --That's the Way It's Done (talk) 21:36, 3 September 2017 (EDT)

Again, going to argue against the fact that PDW rounds are meant to be fired in bursts. You need to unload more than 2 for enemies. In fact, a lot of videos of guys like Larry Vickers would say that these basically varmint rounds need be dumped heavily into a target for them to be effective. PDWs are meant to be show stoppers. Close quarter hoses to beat down enemies, but debatable in the sense if they were effective combat weapons. Shooting a person multiple times is part of good training. You don't just shoot a man once or even twice. But the way the P90 and MP7 are built, they were designed to be fired in bursts to hose down enemies in certain situations. An short barreled AR would of been a better choice than his longer gun. I wouldn't say he was struggling with the longer AR, but he did have to swing it around harder because of its length. The corridors of the catacombs were not too narrow for a 10.5 in barrel gun or shorter. As I have written above, a rifle caliber is more powerful even with lost of velocity in a shorter barrel paired with the right ammo. John also employed the over priced Taran Tactical base plates on all his Pmags, giving them 5 more rounds each. There's an awkwardness to reloading and loading the P90 because of how the mag is placed. There is a lost of speed when even you try to speed reload it. I think what we can all agree on is bringing the Benelli M4 was entirely not worth the cool factor. He kept running out of ammo so fast and even the scene pointed out how dangerous it was for him while reloading because of how relentless the enemy were coming. Excalibur01 (talk) 14:06, 4 September 2017 (EDT)

Remember Wick was forced to use a 1911 at the end of the movie and actually kept on using it at the end when he found a single reload instead of, I don't know....kept the loaded 1911 holstered and pick up a different gun to use as a primary so he would have more ammo by the end. Also surprisingly despite he was picking guns left and right, he had at least 2 chances to pick up rifles from dead guys in the mirror room but decided to stick with his 1911 Excalibur01 (talk) 14:06, 4 September 2017 (EDT)

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