Talk:Knight's Armament PDW

Classification of this weapon

Is this really classed as a submachine gun? http://www.knightarmco.com/images/pdw_last_18.jpg Temp89 13:04, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

Technically it's a PDW which is under a submachine gun Excalibur01 11:32, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

But realistically it's a compact carbine, like the G36C and HK53. Spartan198 11:54, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

Oh, this debate again, after I made a case for maintaining the separation of the PDW and SMG categories on the forums. In any case, "mainstay" PDWs like the MP7 and the FN P90 can be considered SMGs partly because the "fires pistol ammunition" part of the SMG's definition is fulfilled by the Five-seveN and the HK UCP. The KAC PDW's cartridge, however, is too long to fit into a service pistol (like the .30 Carbine was) and is thus strictly a carbine round, muddying its classification further. --Mazryonh 12:42, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

But PDWs can include AKS-74Us which are definitely rifles. To me PDW has always meant beefed-up SMG or cut-down AR. And the fundamental aspect for classifying a gun has always been its ammunition, and this cartridge is closer to rifle than pistol. I don't mind having a separate label for PDWs, but this gun's page in particular has been given the SMG label and gets lumped in SMG sections of movide pages.Temp89 13:04, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

The AK-74U is basically a 74 with a shorter barrel. It is still a RIFLE caliber. A PDW uses a sort of hybrid of a rifle caliber but shrunken to a pistol form. An SMG uses pistol caliber ammo. This gun is something else because it fires an even small bullet than today's standard intermediate cartridge. A PDW is not a cut down AR, a cut down AR is still an AR because it still fires AR rounds. Excalibur01 22:16, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

Yep, an intermediate cartridge's intermediate cartridge (cue the obligatory Inception reference). But yes, a cut down assault/battle rifle is just a carbine or a compact carbine. In an older thread on the forum, I tried to argue that the unique cartridges used by PDWs (rifle-sized projectile diameters, but shorter-than-assault-rifle lengths) merited a separate category, since the "mission profile" is for armour-piercing low-recoil cartridges that allow for smaller weapons than even the most compact of carbines firing assault- or battle-rifle cartridges. If I had my way, I'd drop the "personal defence weapon" moniker immediately (since these weapons can and have been used in an assault role, not just "personal defence") and just call them "micro-rifles" or "sub-rifles," since these PDWs were designed to be effective short-range armour-piercers while using a platform even smaller than mainstay carbines. And no, the PP-2000 and the like are just SMGs loaded with penetrator-containing rounds, since the rounds they use weren't designed from the ground-up to be armour-piercing, unlike the PDW cartridges were. --Mazryonh 19:56, 20 August 2012 (CDT)

PDW is a sales term that means whatever the salesmen decide it means; there is no fixed definition of what kind of weapon you can call a PDW and it's been applied to SMGs, carbine rifles firing completely normal intermediate rounds, and even handguns. The 6mm bullet is an intermediate round (it's short but weighs more than a 5.56mm bullet) and so this is a compact carbine. Evil Tim 06:28, 24 August 2012 (CDT)

As should have been obvious to those salespeople, any weapon can be used "defensively" (which is kind of funny because the P90 has generally NOT been issued to second-line troops, even as they come under increasing terrorist, insurgent, and "I thought he was green" fire, but to CQB assault or VIP protection teams). That's why I believe terms like micro- or sub-rifles would be more descriptive than something as vague as "PDW." And while 6x35mm is too long for a handgun that loads into the grip, I'd say that it's still too short to be a full-fledged intermediate cartridge (those dimensions make me wonder why they didn't go to 6.5x39mm Grendel instead). Sure, the WWII Germans began the intermediate cartridge era with 7.92x33mm, but that was more an act of desperation than anything else--I'm sure they would have gone with a longer length to increase effective range had development started earlier. As for weighing more than 5.56mm rounds, there are heavier ones available, and it's not that big an achievement since 5.56mm rounds are so narrow for their length. --Mazryonh 22:59, 24 August 2012 (CDT)

Ok, the 6x35mm isn't too short for an intermediate cartridge. Look at .300 Blackout (7.62x35mm). Jeddostotle7 23:49, 24 August 2012 (CDT)

Intermediate rounds can be pretty stumpy; 4.7x33mm caseless is an intermediate, and as you say so is the 7.92x33mm Kurz. Trying to put something between intermediate and pistol sort of ignores that everything between pistol and rifle is intermediate. Besides, it's all of 4 millimetres away from 39mm, and you can hardly say 39mm isn't intermediate unless you think the AK series are actually all SMGs. Evil Tim 03:38, 25 August 2012 (CDT)

Redirect needed?

If someone enters "KAC PDW" into the search form, I hope they get taken to this page. It works that way for wikipedia for that weapon's page there. --Mazryonh 12:28, 19 August 2012 (CDT)

It's already created. --Funkychinaman 12:40, 19 August 2012 (CDT)