Talk:The Town

Another Unidentified M1911 variant

Not sure what M1911 variant this is, Colt Gold Cup? Kimber? --Ben41 07:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Maybe a Kimber, but not a Colt Gold Cup. This pistol doesn't have the Colt Gold Cup's raised target sights. Below are some extra shots of the scene.- Kenny99 14:53, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Doug MacRay is seen shooting off a pistol while in a non-functioning train car.

A Fenway Park security guard is seen with a pistol that looks like some sort of SIG.

Looks like a P228 to me.--FIVETWOSEVEN 16:22, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

it looks like a compact 1911 in some kind of officer's model...possibly a custom Colt with stainless push pins.--Spades of Columbia 14:58, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't remeber this seen... when did this happen? --TheDon 15:36, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

This was after MacRay went to Claire's home. After she found out that Doug is a suspect.

Is the scene from the extended edition? Cause I watched the movie at least a dozen times over the last day, and I never saw this scene.--TheDon 17:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, this a new one on me.--Jackie.45Cal 14:45, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

That train scene is from the extended/unrated version.

Unknowns

Jem (Jeremy Renner) fires a pistol.

Looks like a USP. -Dr. Awesome

I agree, i think it's a USP Compact. -Scott; August 12th 2010

Am I the only one who thinks this movie looks like it will be awesome? --ManiacallyChallenged

Plus also this page is the talk of The Town. Puns are awesome.

And am I the only one who thinks that these guys are, like, alarmingly well-equipped for bank robbers? I WISH it were that easy to get a full-auto HK416. :(

Even if the registry was reopened you would still have a hard time getting one. HK would go out of their way to somehow stop that.--FIVETWOSEVEN 04:32, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Keep in mind that this is MASSACHUSETTS that the movie is set in. Strictest gun laws ever. SKS rifles aren't even allowed to be purchased inside the Boston city limits. -- K 98.118.59.151 10:32, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

You know I have to admit I was thinking the same thing myself in regards to the weapons used by this crew and those in other movies like Heat or something. Where are these guys getting their firepower? HK's 416 is strictly in use by SOCOM or SWAT units. Sure the argument can be made they are acquiring some stuff on the "black market" but...come on!!! --Charon68 20:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Heat actually made more sense than this one. AR-15 carbines are relatively easy to convert with drop in parts, Sigs and HK pistols are easy to find, and a semi-automatic HK 91 are nothing compared to an HK 416. GaBoy45 00:56, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Well to stretch it, we can say this movie takes place during a time when the HK416's civilian variant has been released already and like in Heat, the character bought the civilian variant and put in a drop in auto conversion. It IS a stretch, but at least my theory explains how they at least got a hold of a 416.

Oh and to the guy up there saying that because this movie takes place in Massachusetts with the strictest gun laws ever doesn't mean ANYTHING to bank robbers or criminal in general. They coulda bought their guns outside of the state, transported them back to Massachusetts and then made them full auto. This is the fact showing that gun control in one state doesn't matter when all you have to do is go to the neighboring state. I mean, what's H&K really going to do when they find out that someone is using their guns in a bank robbery? You really think the gun company would go out of their way to make sure their name isn't tarnished when police have problem finding high profile criminals? Excalibur01 02:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I should know what you can and can't do in MA, seeing as I live there. :P You can't even buy a handgun in Boston with a magazine that can hold more than ten rounds, any shotgun with a revolving cylinder and/or a capacity exceeding six rounds, a semiautomatic rifle with a fixed magazine capacity exceeding 10 rounds, any SKS, AK47, UZI, AR-15, Steyr AUG, FN-FAL, and FN-FNC rifle. I agree, your point is valid, but there's no need to sound all snippy about it. all I was saying is that obtaining that level of weaponry would be a fairly difficult task. -- K 98.118.59.151 21:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I must agree with Excalibur01 here. Professional CRIMINALS don't have the same barriers to weapons that law abiding regular citizens do. Just having draconian gun laws really doesn't mean anything to a professional criminal. A good example of this is the shootouts by the YAKUZA in JAPAN. Seriously, the fact that criminals can get anything they want (and by definition DON'T follow the law anyway) proves how useless and stupid most gun prohibitions are. ..... MoviePropMaster2008 05:03, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to be "snippy". You're just reading my text in that tone. I was just being informative on how things work to the criminal mind. They don't follow the law or any rules at all. You really think a magazine limit will stop a criminal from committing crime? Excalibur01 13:06, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Haha absolutely not, and in that respect, most, if not all, firearms laws are a joke. Sorry if I took that the wrong way, no hard feelings. :) -- K 98.118.59.151 17:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

And just as another stretch, it IS possible to get the HK USC, with is the civilian UMP and customize it to function like a UMP, but the best theory on why all the hard to get weapons is they most likely stole them from the Police. I mean, there are many departments that uses the UMP and there are some out there that do have the HK416. It wouldn't be TOO hard to believe they ambushed a cop car and stole their weapons or broke into a police armory. They seem to be good at breaking in and disguising themselves. Excalibur01 02:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

They could also possibly had illegal weapon imports from foreign countries. - Kenny99 03:01, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I doubt it'd be an illegal import in full automatic since you'd have to have legit military or Law Enforcement credentials for something like that. HK has a very poor track record when it comes to civilian customer service. Excalibur01 15:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

It appears that Hollywood uses HK416s as well.

You guys are over-thinking this again. The bottom line is this: The robbers are using HK416s and other exotic automatic weapons because those guns look cool, and visual impact is all that matters in Hollywood. In real life, it is highly unlikely that we would ever see bank robbers using such hardware. It's not impossible, but it is highly unlikely. -MT2008 15:11, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Also even in 'movie world', professional criminals can have ties to gun running operations like those run by the Hell's Angels or the Mafia or even the Drug Cartel. There is NO BARRIER to any type of weapons ownership if you have the will and the CASH to get it and are willing to deal with very unsavory types. The weapons used by the Mexican Drug cartel right NOW is proof of that. Talk about a country with draconian gun control, it certainly doesn't stop the Drug Cartel gangs. Now fortunately for us, in the real world, 99% of criminals are STUPID, but that's another thread all together..;) MoviePropMaster2008 05:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Well said MT2008...this is a movie not a documentry.--Spades of Columbia 17:32, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Aren't the robbers in the movie (McRay, Coughlin and Fergie the florist) Irish? Maybe they are raising funds for the IRA? What if they got the 416s from IRA arm dealers? The IRA affliated dealer in The Boondock Saints was shown to have an impressive arsenal including the HK PSG-1, Arctic Warfare Police, DShK etc. So my theory goes that some guerillas managed to kill British special forces, who may have been issued the HK 416s in limited quantities for testing and then sold them. What bugs me is the fact that on one hand these robbers are using HK 416s and on the other the TEC-9. If Jem wanted a 9mm smg, wouldn't the MP5(K) be a better choice? --Devang.dn 07:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, they're Irish, but that doesn't mean they're affiliated with the IRA. And the real-life IRA(s) is not nearly as well-armed as movies make them look (most of their weaponry was purchased in gun stores in the U.S.) If you are seriously trying to explain the feasibility of Irish-American bank robbers having HK416s by suggesting that they could have gotten the weapons from the IRA, simply because of how the IRA is portrayed in movies...well, do I even need to say it? -MT2008 15:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Which part of guerillas killing British military personnel and selling their weapons not possible? I'm not saying that every single IRA is equiped with exotic weapons, just that it is possible they may get their hands on one or two. In that case it would be better to sell these and buy more cheaper guns. This theory fits perfectly with the PSG-1 and AWP while the DSHk could be supplied by Libya. --Devang.dn 15:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Hold Up! the IRA is buying "most of their weaponry was purchased in gun stores in the U.S."? Where is that information coming from? How can a little country like the U.S ;) supply its personally purchased firearms to the Mexican drug Cartels AND the IRA?...shit man we get blamed for everything!--Spades of Columbia 16:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

(1.) There isn't any British military unit that uses the HK416. The SAS still uses traditional direct-impingement M16s and M4s (which is irrelevant, since the SAS also hasn't conducted any operations in Northern Ireland since the 1990s).

(2.) Since 2007, the British Army has ended its operations in Northern Ireland. All British troops involved in combat and peacekeeping operations during the Troubles have either returned to base or returned to the mainland. Although there is still paramilitary activity in the province (from both Republican and Loyalist groups), it is now handled by Northern Ireland's police force, the PSNI. In other words, not many British military personnel walking around with their weapons.

(3.) The Provisional IRA (which is what most people mean by "the IRA") disarmed itself in 2005 and has become an exclusively political organization (all of its weapons, including its large stock of assault rifles, were decommissioned under the supervision of an international monitoring agency). There are still several splinter IRA factions (the Real IRA, Continuity IRA, and the Irish National Liberation Army) which do not support the peace process, but those groups are extremely poorly armed, due to the difficulties in securing funding and supply routes for weapons. If you ever find propaganda photos of them, you'll see that they're still using rusty old AKs sent to the PIRA by Qaddafi 25 years ago, and outdated civilian AR-15s that were bought by American IRA supporters from gun shops 30+ years ago. If any of those groups had an HK416, I'm pretty sure they'd keep it for themselves. They simply don't have enough weapons that they can afford to sell off to anyone else.

Need I say more? -MT2008 16:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

the IRA is buying "most of their weaponry was purchased in gun stores in the U.S."? Where is that information coming from?

As I've said, not IS, was. For most of its history, the IRA got most of its weapons from its supporters in the U.S. By the 1980s, the FBI had started cracking down on the IRA's American gunrunner network, and Libya took over supplying weapons. You can read more here. -MT2008 16:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

The SAS use the Diemaco C8 SFW not the M4. And what you said about the IRA is true, the troubles are pretty much over, the IRA disarmed themselves back in 2005 and have become a completely politically motivated entity. --cool-breeze 16:22, 2 July 2011 (CDT)

Watched this on cable. I'm no kind of Ben Affleck fan. In fact he usually annoys the piss out of me. But I liked this film. It's obvious that it's main influence is HEAT, even though it is based on a book, and I think the weapon choices made were just another aspect of that influence. I don't have any issue with the notion that multi generational Irish mobsters could get a hold of crazy weapons. No IRA connection was inferred in the film. They are not terrorists. Just thugs. But they are part of a bigger picture that I think could certainly get them uzi's, and AK's and AR's.--James3 02:50, 3 August 2011 (CDT)

Yahoo Movies

Yahoo Movies has some pictures. http://movies.yahoo.com/photos/movie-stills/gallery/2274/the-town-stills#photo6 http://movies.yahoo.com/photos/movie-stills/gallery/2274/the-town-stills#photo37

Jimmy O?

Is it just me or is that cop with the wooden stocked 870 played by Titus Welliver, who plays Jimmy O'Phelan on Sons of Anarchy ShootingLiberal 00:50, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah that's him. He was in Affleck's Gone Baby Gone also.--Predator20 01:34, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Rifle with dual-magazines

Anyone knows what this rifle is? (in much better detail at [1]) - Kenny99 02:07, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

A Boston S.W.A.T. with an M4 Carbine with a C-More red dot sight, an R.I.S. foregrip, and a tactical flashlight in a wallpaper.

AKMSU - Mythekal

Thanks. - Kenny99 02:52, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I always knew the nuns would get desperate after Sunday donations dried up :) BeardedHoplite 14:33, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Don't fear their rulers, few their automatic weapons Excalibur01 15:04, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Question on Fergie's gun *SPOILERS*

This is one for people who've seen the movie. Near the end when Doug goes to Fergie's and kills him. I was pretty sure that Fergie's pistol was a Glock but my friends swear that it was some sort of 1911. Did anybody get a clear look at it? ShootingLiberal 17:50, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Definitely a 1911 pistol, you could see the rounded top of the slide and the foreend was distinctly 1911 style.--Pølaris 01:36, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Damn, how they hell did I miss that? I'm supposed to be the 1911 whore and they're the ones who saw it haha, time for pride swallowing I suppose. ShootingLiberal 18:22, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm certain it was a 1911, but was it full length or compact? I could swear it only had a 4" barrel, can anyone confirm or correct?

Unknown Revolver

Someone wanted to identify Renner's revolver...I just saw the film, and I think it's Smith and Wesson's new .38 Bodyguard. I swear I saw the top mounted cylinder release when he draws it and places it against the guy's leg. Here's the gun in question...I've forgotten how to put the picture in, so here's the link: http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/bodyguard38_103038_l1.jpg -Anonymous

I think it was a shrouded hammer, like on the S&W m38. And for some reason (don't ask why, it just randomly popped into my head) when I first saw it, my brain screamed "TAURUS". Can't explain, just my first impression.

When Affleck and Renner go to the projects to beat up the two guys who threw bottles at the bank manager/hostage/Affleck's new love interest, Renner shot one of the guys in both of his legs using a snubnose revolver. Anybody know what make and model it was???

It looked like a hammerless Snub nose type of revolver. Taurus Model 65 I believe.

Taurus was my first impression as well. Though I thought it had a shrouded hammer...

Might have been a Ruger LCR

I'm thinking Taurus 651 or 851. Was not hammerless, had a shrouded hammer.

I was thinking that it was more of a Smith and Wesson model 38, maybe model 36 or a small 357 like a 620

Either a Model 38 or 49, methinks. -MT2008 02:37, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Yup.--Predator20 02:43, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

SA SA58 OSW Carbine in the opening robbery

I think the DSA SA58 OSW Carbine is in the opening robbery scene, carried by the guy who "drowns" the cell phones of the staff.

That's what I thought, too (I went into the movie having seen the trailer, which has the SA58 being used), but I could've sworn I saw that it had an AR-style 5.56x45mm mag. We'll need to wait until the Blu Ray comes out in order to confirm what it was, though. -MT2008 00:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Just watched the movie. The rifle used by Des in the opening scene is a Micro Galil, not the SA58 OSW used by Doug later. -MT2008 23:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

So who's doing this? Cause I got the DVD of it Excalibur01 05:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm traveling on Sunday and packing tomorrow, so I won't be able to do it immediately. But I've got the Blu Ray, so I'd prefer I did it (unless somebody else has the Blu Ray and is as careful and thorough at screencapping as I am). -MT2008 05:51, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I can get the Blu Ray but if you know me...I might miss something Excalibur01 06:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Beretta

Wasn't this a Taurus PT92?--FIVETWOSEVEN 02:46, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I thought it was a Two tone Beretta 92FS.--Pølaris 03:39, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I have the movie on Blu-Ray, and it's a Beretta 92FS Inox. -MT2008 03:43, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I thought it was a regular Beretta not an Inox, but I'll watch it again.--Predator20 04:12, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Must be thinking of another movie.--FIVETWOSEVEN 20:17, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not done with my screencapping yet, but I'll go ahead and post this image now:

Enlarge it to full-size if you want to see it better. That is a 92FS Inox. However, the lighting is pretty dim, which makes it a bit harder to tell what kind of finish the gun has. You can tell, however, that the alloy frame is not blued. -MT2008 01:47, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it's the light, but the slide seems black, while the frame is anodized (silver). But it probably has to with the slide being actual stainless (darker more grey), and the frame alloy.--Predator20 01:52, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's the lighting that makes it look like the slide is blued. I dunno, maybe my eye sight sucks. I just kinda figured that if the pistol's frame is anodized, odds are at least 90% that the propmaster took a 92FS Inox out of the armory, because those are pretty common. Whereas I haven't seen a reverse two-tone 92FS yet (only the standard two-tone, which has a blued frame and stainless slide). -MT2008 02:29, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

EDIT: One other thing - my screencaps are always pretty dark (no matter what movie I play). When I saw this movie in theaters back in September, I remember the lighting wasn't quite as dark. Seeing this gun on the big screen, I remember it being a 92FS Inox. And while the Blu-Ray is pretty high-quality, it will never be as high-quality as seeing the movie in a theater. -MT2008 02:33, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

The Beretta Inox in Predators has a dark grey slide with the frame looking light grey or silver. My personal Beretta Inox you can see a color difference between the frame and slide, but it doesn't look two-toned. But both mine and the Inox MPM took are from the early 90s. So maybe the newer ones have a more "two-tone" look compared to the early models.--Predator20 02:42, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, MPM told me something about this once. Apparently, the 92FS Inox pistols made after about 1995 or so have a disparity between finishes on the slide and frame (the one he photographed from Fair Game is an earlier generation gun that doesn't have this problem). I'm guessing the Predators gun is also one of the newer ones. -MT2008 02:19, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

That is a two tone Beretta. Unless the Inox slide colour Disparity makes it black.--Jackie.45Cal 08:18, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

This is a two-tone Beretta. Pretty much Identical to this one.--TheDon 19:58, 23 March 2012 (CDT) http://www.dallasguns.com/listing_images/large/00005881_b7afa6a261d0321310494536.jpg

It's way too hard to tell given the lighting, but since the 92FS Inox is more likely to be in a given armory's inventory than a two-tone 92FS, the safer bet is 92FS Inox. Until we get ahold of the weapons rental documents from this production, we'll continue to list it as such. -MT2008 11:18, 24 March 2012 (CDT)

I don't think it is really that hard to tell. If you look at the parts of the gun with equal amounts of lighting, whether it be well lit or in a shadow, there is a clear difference between the frame and slide, with the frame being obviously silver and the slide being clearly darker. You can also see that the grip are black and slide looks to be the same color as the grip.--One shot is all it takes. (talk) 01:19, 13 April 2015 (EDT)

Boston Police Department

I was wondering if anyone knows of the firearms that a Boston cop is permitted to carry? I have been trying to figure this out for a lot of major citys but no luck. I can't find San Diego, Seattle, New Orleans, Miami, Atlanta. --24guns 4:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC

The last time I was in Boston (fall 2007), the BPD officers I saw on patrol at the Head of the Charles Regatta were mostly carrying Glocks and SIG Pros in their holsters. -MT2008 23:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Atlanta PD was carrying 3rd Generation Smith & Wesson automatics in .40 S&W. Mostly 4006 and 4046. I think they switched though. GaBoy45 03:34, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I live in Boston and I see a lot of Glocks being used by BPD and cops in the outlying suburbs. MrYurrita 22:36, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Boston cops are issued Glock 23s[2]. 24.15.51.1

San Diego police are mostly seen using mostly various Glocks and what looks like Remington 870s. That's all I could remember. - 24.5.139.83 07:51, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Ballistic Shield

What the hell happened with that ballistic shield during the Fenway Park shootout? I've watched it several times, but unless I'm missing something in that scene, it looked like Renner hit it with a burst from his 416 which caused it to shatter like glass. I'm not an expert in all things firearms and ammunition, but I seriously doubt 5.56 (even armor piercing) could bust through a ballistic shield like that. Spartan198 22:51, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Your right, AP rounds are a possibility, but those shields are rated for .30 caliber rounds which are 7.62 ammunition. so I highly doubt that a HK 416 could blow holes through a ballistic shield like this, even at point blank range i doubt it would happen

Ben Affleck said in the Blu-Ray commentary that they wanted to show the shield get chipped, but it was too quick a scene to do it small, so it was bigger than it should have been. He also was talking about it getting hit with an AK round, so it could have been a continuity from before he picked up the HK.

AK rounds wouldnt chip the shield, those are rated to stop 7.62x51mm Nato standard rounds, which are larger then AK rounds, if ceramic plates in body armour can stop AK rounds then a solid steel ballistic shield can stop those no problem, without chipping, otherwise the police/FBI wouldnt use them. Unless the shield was made improper, or the thieves had military grade armour piercing ammunition (highly inpractical) then the shield could possibly have been damaged.

Although im not much of an expert on this, me and my father discussed this after watching the movie, and after pausing and rewatching the scene several times, it appears he hits the ballistic shield right where the plating is welded and the supports are not as strong. I mean these shields are not made out of solid steel, that would be ridiculous to carry, I'm not sure the material they use to make them but its not impenetrable. I'm not certain on it but my dad said that ballistic shields can be easily penetrated by rifle rounds if hit in the right areas as not all shields are rated to protect against heavier calibers and are made for SMG and Handgun protection. On a side note i was very impressed by this movie considering Ben Affleck directed it, rare to see for a modern movie. - Doc345

these shields weigh alot because they are made out of steel, and yes you are right they would be ridiculous to carry, that is why you have a trained operator carrying the shield both hands, because it is heavy, the FBI will not willingly send their men in without a protective shield that can stop rifle rounds (seeing as what that is what the robbers used several times in their multiple robberies), sending their men in with shields that cant stand up to that would be stupid. Anyways the weapon caughlin in shown firing at the shield is a 416, 5.56x45mm nato standard. they would barely dent a steel ballistic sheild

Not an UMP.

A Boston S.W.A.T. with a UMP.

clearly a MP5 with a surefire.

Unused stills

A production still of Doug MacRay (Ben Affleck) retrieving money while disguised as a police officer.

A suggestion

I think the TEC-9 should be moved to the pistols with a note about the conversion, because it is a semi-auto pistol IIRC. - bozitojugg3rn4ut 16:53, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

Why? It's not a pistol it's a sub-machine gun. Just because it's a smaller sub-machine gun doesn't make it a pistol. --cool-breeze 18:55, 26 October 2011 (CDT)

I was not talking about its size, but the fact that it is semi-auto only. As far as I know smgs can go auto. - bozitojugg3rn4ut

It depends on the SMG, the HK94 is still classed as a SMG even though it is semi auto only unless it has been converted to full auto. Just because something is semi auto only doesn't make it a pistol the same way a Glock 18 isn't a SMG but a fully automatic pistol. --cool-breeze 06:52, 27 October 2011 (CDT)

So you would put a converted Glock 17 among the submachine guns? Because this IS the same scenario here. - bozitojugg3rn4ut 08:09, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

The TEC-9 used in the movie is a full-auto weapon, so it seems appropriate to keep it in submachine guns. If it had been a semi-auto version that was fired only on semi-auto, we'd put it in pistols. -MT2008 08:29, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

I don't understand why it would suddenly become a pistol if it was semi auto only. A PGS1 rifle isn't a pistol but that only fires semi auto. --cool-breeze 12:20, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

Not really a valid comparison. The PSG1 fires a rifle round, whereas a sub-machine gun fires a pistol round. Spartan198 21:20, 23 March 2012 (CDT)

The TEC-9 is a machine pistol. It has the ergonomics of a handgun (no buttstock and no dedicated place to put your offhand) and full-auto fire capability, so it's a machine pistol. --Mazryonh 21:55, 23 March 2012 (CDT)

I know you've been pushing this debate on the forum, but we are NOT creating an entire category for "machine pistol", especially if it's just on this page. -MT2008 11:16, 24 March 2012 (CDT)

Pardon me, but there's already a category for Machine Pistols and it's already a fair size. The TEC-9 page itself is part of the Machine Pistol category. Granted, the Interdynamic KG-9 / Intratec TEC-9 page (the "mother" page for the TEC-9 and its variants) also belongs to the Submachine Gun category, but that works under my identification paradigm since the original Interdynamic MP9 had both a buttstock and a foregrip, making it the only true submachine gun on that page. And categories are assigned to firearm pages inclusively on this wiki--if even a single firearm variant on firearm page is of a type different from the rest, the appropriate category tag is added to that page. --Mazryonh 00:44, 27 March 2012 (CDT)