Talk:Call of Duty: Black Ops Cold War

Miscellaneous

US Air Force Pilot Survival Knife

A US Air Force Pilot Survival Knife issued to US Air Force jet pilots flying over Vietnam is carried by Woods in promotional media. The same knife but with a different style of scabbard is also carried by a yet unknown character in the reveal trailer.

Vietnam War Period US Military Tomahawk

A tomahawk based on those used by US forces during the Vietnam War is available in multiplayer.

Hybrid AK Bayonet

What appears to be a hybrid between the basic AK-47 bayonet and the AKM Type II Bayonet is tossed by a Spetsnaz operative in the multiplayer reveal trailer.

Shtrafbat Knife

What appears to be a Russian Shtrafbat knife is used by Spetsnaz operatives to dispatch the walkman using US soldier in the multiplayer reveal trailer and is carried by multiplayer operator Stone in some kind of a sleeve attached sheath. It is most likely anachronistic.

Vietnam War Period MACV-SOG Knife

A Vietnam War period MACV-SOG knife is carried by multiplayer operatives Sims and Stone.

KA-BAR Knife

Th player character takes a serrated KA-BAR Knife from a dead enemy operative at the beginning of "Nowhere Left to Run". It can be used throughout the mission.

Attachments

Optics

C79 Optical Sight

The C79 Optical Sight appears as the "Visiontech 2x". It is slightly anachronistic as it was introduced towards the end of the Cold War, in 1989.

Colt Scope

The Colt scope appears as "Axial Arms 3x".

Elbit Falcon

The Israeli Elbit Falcon sight appears as the "Millstop Reflex" and its description mentions inaccurately that it is produced in the USA. Unlike in the first Black Ops, however, this time its appearance might not be anachronistic since this game has 1980s segments.

Kobra Red Dot Sight

The Russian Kobra red dot sight appears as the "Kobra Red Dot" and its description mentions inaccurately that it is of Soviet origin. Its depiction in the 1980s is anachronistic as it was developed in the 1990s or 2000s in reality.

"Sillix Holoscout"

The "Sillix Holoscout" is a red dot sight of unknown model and make. However, its design is too modern for the Cold War era and resembles in some aspects the Steiner Optics CQT which was unveiled at Shot Show 2019.

SUIT Sight

The SUIT sight appears as the "Royal & Kross 4x". The real scope's right side is depicted being on the left in game.

Tasco Red Dot Scope

On handguns, the "Millstop Reflex" sight takes the form of a Tasco Red Dot Scope. It’s anachronistic considering the fact that it was first released in 1994.

Muzzle devices

SilencerCo Salvo 12

The SilencerCo Salvo 12 suppressor appears as the "Agency Whisper Choke". Its depiction in the 1980s is anachronistic as it was introduced in 2014.

Sionics Two-Stage Sound Suppressor

The Sionics Two-Stage Sound Suppressor appears as the "Agency Suppressor". It is depicted as being attachable to rifles which is dubious to work in reality.

PBS-4

The PBS-4 appears as the "Agency Silencer".

PBS-1

The PBS-1 appears as the "Silencer".

Foregrips

A1 Pistol Grip

A slightly modified A1 pistol grip appears as the "MI6 Ergonomic Grip". Using A1 grips as foregrips was actually something done by the MACV-SOG during the Vietnam War so this can be considered the only foregrip that is period appropriate in the whole game.

"Marshal Foregrip/Red Cell Foregrip"

The "Marshal Foregrip" used on western rifles and "Red Cell Foregrip" used on western SMGs appear to be inspired by the BCM Gunfighter vertical grip. This kind of foregrip is anachronistic for the 1980s.

The "Marshal Foregrip" used on eastern bloc weapons is a chopped BS-1 grenade launcher grip.

"Front Grip"

The "Front Grip" is essentially a chopped AIM grip.

"Patrol Grip"

The "Patrol Grip" used on western weapons is a modified FN Minimi style grip.

The "Patrol Grip" used on eastern bloc weapons is an AKM-63 foregrip.

"Foregrip"

The "Foregrip" appears to be inspired by the Streamlight Vertical Grip.

Magazines

"40 Rd"

The "40 Rd" magazine used on western weapons is a fictional quad stack steel STANAG magazine inspired by the SureFire MAG5-60. The SureFire MAG5-60 is anachronistic for the 1980s and the concept of a quad stack STANAG magazine didn't exist back then.

The "40 Rd" magazine used on eastern bloc weapons is a standard steel 7.62x39mm 40 round magazine.

Barrels

TEC-9 barrel & shroud

A TEC-9 style barrel and shroud are used as the "Cavalry Lancer" and "Paratrooper" barrel attachments for western SMGs.

Fluted AR barrel

Custom AR pattern fluted barrels appear as the "Cavalry Lancer" and "Strike Team" barrel attachments for western rifles. This is most likely anachronistic as fluted AR barrels appear to be a modern thing.

Live Action Trailers

"Teaser" Trailer

Thompson SMG

Carried by a US soldier deploying from a chopper in Vietnam.

Unidentified US Rifle

An unknown rifle carried by US troops during anti Vietnam War protests. Possibly Springfield M1903?

Unidentified Russian Rifle

Unknown rifles are being paraded by Soviet troops. Possibly Mosin Nagants or some of the Soviet semi auto rifles?

M1 flamethrower

Used by a US soldier probably in Vietnam.

Discussion

Weapons I Saw

I saw the AK47, or I not so sure if it's an AKM or Type 56. Then I saw an RPD LMG, a FN FNC battle rifle, XM177E2 with a flattop, although to be fair, flattop was around in the 80's. Then I saw a Colt 1911A1, a Remington 700 sniper rifle, and a AKS-74U Carbine. I'm not sure if the M16 appears to be a M16A1 or XM16E1. This "Commando" however does have a forward assist, but it has a A1 pistol grip, making this gun not the Colt 733.--Treliazz (talk) 15:13, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

The AK looks like an AKM, I think. The XM177 appears to be based on the Commando from the first Black Ops, but we'll see. Also, nice work getting on this page so quick! I was ready to start it later tonight, you beat me to it. --PyramidHead (talk) 15:29, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

For clarification, I'm the one who started the page, not the guy above :P Anyway, the AK is actually an AK-47 (but with an AKM's slant compensator); note the gas block and the front sight, and the milled receiver is also seen in the trailer, though the specific shot is flipped. --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 15:41, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

As for the "SOCIMI Type 821", that looks like MW's Uzi without the stock. I think a lot of the guns are supposed to be shared between these two games, judging by the Warzone integration and other cross-era guns like the AK-47, M1911, SKS ect.--AgentGumby (talk) 16:11, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

Naw, the rear sight's position and the folding stock mechanism below it indicate that it's a SOCIMI. --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 16:33, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

I see now, though it still looks a bit Uzi-like. Maybe it is new attachments/furniture; I guess time will tell. --AgentGumby (talk) 17:32, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

I'm replacing the screencaps by 4K ones; the relevant image now shows more details about the SOCIMI. --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 13:43, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

A couple leaked images I found from the game's Reddit page (may not reflect content in final version or even open beta/pre-alpha/etc.):

Multiplayer screen showing a customized LMG: https://preview.redd.it/yap84l0silj51.jpg?width=2208&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=08e974eb33d15ceec5988ed578cd913930ee053f

Campaign screen showing an M16 (called M16A1): https://preview.redd.it/a8gvpo0silj51.jpg?width=2208&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=09a14d017bef3e5e54ba18c69e13a90ec22e076e

In addition, from what I've heard from a few content creators on YouTube who managed to see some campaign gameplay footage, other appearing weapons include an MP5, G3 (known as Krieg-6), Type 63 assault rifle, SPAS-12, the China Lake grenade launcher, and a recurve bow or crossbow. As said earlier, these may not necessarily be in the final game, so take them with a grain of salt. --MJ79 (talk) 09:08, 28 August 2020 (EDT)

A type Type 63 would be an interesting addition. Was it mentioned specifically as a Type 63 or could it be someone confusing it with an SKS with a 30 round detachable magazine? --PyramidHead (talk) 09:22, 28 August 2020 (EDT)

I can't exactly tell; it said "Type 63" in a list of leaked stuff somewhere, but there's nothing visual to confirm this yet. It's all speculation. --MJ79 (talk) 09:34, 28 August 2020 (EDT)

Finally

Well, took them long enough. After all the super secret projector puzzles and Warzone scavenger hunts. Look pretty cool, though. I love the 1980s Cold War, it was a pretty aesthetic time for weapons and military hardware.

So, what's on everyone's wishlists? Because I'm weird, I went and made my dream weapons list shortly after speculation about this game's existence started. I'm just hoping for period-appropriate weapons that actually make sense for the setting; I thought Modern Warfare was pretty good with that. Like, can we finally have a standard AK-74? Please? --PyramidHead (talk) 16:04, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

Wouldn't mind seeing the Czech Vz. 58, that rifle is really underrepresented in games and would fit in well in this setting. I did notice the shorty AK that is shown being suppressed in the trailer has a correct AKS-74U rear sight, which hopefully is retroactively made a usable variant in MW.--AgentGumby (talk) 17:47, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

Looks like a properly sized AKS-74u barrel instead of the weirdo short barrel from MW2019 too, which is nice. I'm disappointed they went and made a faux Huey though, and the Tomcat also has some issues like vertical stabilizers having too much cant and intake scoops not being slanted forward enough. Also, the infamous backwards Troy BUIS from BLOPS1 makes a return, albeit actually facing the correct direction.--Aidoru (talk) 01:24, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

I would expect such guns as vz. 61 and vz. 23, and perhaps Stechkin APB. And may be could see the MTs 21-12 autoloader as an Easter egg. But wait, we have the "first results in google pictures" guys, so what am I talking about. --Slon95 (talk) 19:45, 29 August 2020 (EDT)

That's too realistic and accurate selection. If it is a true Black Ops game, then it should contain exotic, anachronistic and unheard of weapons. --Nanomat (talk) 18:56, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

January 1984 - XM4 Carbine

My wish list to have the XM4 Carbine (Colt 720), but it should be more like a gunsmith attachment for the XM177E1. The gun was first made in 1983 by the US Army as a customize XM177E2 with a A1 flash hider and fires M16A2 rounds. Later in January 1984, the 14.5 inch barrel and a A2 pistol grip was add it to the gun referring to as the XM4 Carbine.--Treliazz (talk) 18:21, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

Inb4 they bring back hyper-anachronistic guns like the L96A1 and the infamous FELIN version of the FAMAS again just to troll us. Anyways, I hope they brought back the "Death Machine" handheld minigun, "Grim Reaper" M202 rocket launcher and the underbarrel "Masterkey" shotgun and flamethrower attachments from the original Blops. --MJ79 (talk) 09:08, 28 August 2020 (EDT)

Hope, they learned the lesson and did the research this time. Maybe this was the original Black Ops plot before was scapped? (Which explained guns anhachronism). Hope that will be possible to fight both NVAs, the Vietnam one and the German one. The perfect weapons for them would be FB PM63 and SKS. For the Ossies, hope for a MPi-K74 configuration (which already used by Farah in MW2019). The hype and expectation after huge after MW...--Dannyguns (talk) 03:26, 8 September 2020 (EDT)

Steiner CQT

I don't think the reflex sight on the Stoner is a Steiner CQT, the housing for the lens goes all the forward, there's an elevation knob on the left side and a windage knob at the rear.--Aidoru (talk) 02:04, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

This is the closest match I found. Also I believe they are going the same "modern warfare stylization" route and therefore changing some of the details. Another thing that makes me pretty convinced that they used the Steiner CQT as reference is the fact that I simply googled "Cold War holographic sight" and it popped up. --Nanomat (talk) 10:35, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

XM177 promotional image

Just linking this high quality image, for reference's sake: [1]. --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 11:24, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

Rick Zeng told me the real reason why they add a flat top and a combination of an XM177 hider and an A1 flash hider is because of legal reasons. You also have to keep in mind that flattop was actually done in the 80s by Olympic Arms, even though back in E3 for Black Ops I, the Commando appears to have a MIL-STD-1913 Picatinny rail, that was introduced in 1993 when Colt developed the M4A1.--Treliazz (talk) 14:05, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

I think they should definitely drop this whole "change it so they don't sue us" attitude considering they won the humvee lawsuit. As for the chopping of the carry handle, unlike in BO1, this time it is not so anachronistic, however, considering that the campaign is set in 1981 and the practice of using chopped ARs by the actual military, as far as I have read, became a thing in the early 2000s most likely during the invasion of Iraq, then it might be considered anachronistic. As for the rail, it appears that both in the OG BO1 and this new one, it is based on something like the rail seen on the Predator 2 Deagle, which I cannot find any info about after many hours of research, I'd wager it is some kind of 80s proto picatinny/weaver rail? --Nanomat (talk) 14:20, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

Isn't this rifle closer to a 933 [2] than an XM177? Temp89 (talk)

No, it isn't. The in-game gun has a shorter 10" barrel, an earlier A1 forward assist, and no case deflector. --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 17:22, 28 August 2020 (EDT)

Is it so hard for them to make period accurate weapons? They are so fixated in giving the players the capability to add optics that it doesn't even make sense. Excalibur01 (talk) 01:18, 29 August 2020 (EDT)

Even then, it's not like you can't mount optics to a carry-handled AR or anything; hell, I'd wager that it even looks cooler that way. I'm just holding out hope that the XM16E1 can mount optics without hacksawing the carry handle, but that hope isn't high. Pyr0m4n14c (talk) 08:16, 29 August 2020 (EDT)

The carrying handles were designed to mount optics. Special Forces were the first to do it. Excalibur01 (talk) 21:22, 29 August 2020 (EDT)

To be fair, optics attached directly onto the carry handle kinda take a lot of space on the screen and thus it is not quite practical from gameplay perspective. Also, it is clear that after MW2 they adopted kind of a "let's insert modernism and tacticoolism into everything" attitude which is clearly evident in all the anachronistic and tacticool stuff added to BO1 and now this one. --Nanomat (talk) 09:58, 31 August 2020 (EDT)

Eh, I don't think they take up enough space to really cause problems (not to mention that that'd be a neat balancing feature). But more to the point, it's not like they haven't had optics on carrying handles before (e.g. the FAMAS, the QBZ and USAS in MW3, etc.). I just hope that they've learned from their mistakes. Pyr0m4n14c (talk) 15:35, 31 August 2020 (EDT)

The basic FAMAS in MW2019 is held lower when scopes are equipped. This thing's upper would also be neat to see as well, rather than a modern-looking flat top.--AgentGumby (talk) 17:04, 31 August 2020 (EDT)

Colt Model 656 M16A1 Special Low Profile fitted with scope and 20-round magazine - 5.56x45mm NATO

Military ARs or civilian?

Does the semi-auto only selector markings on the "XM177E1" mean that it was actually modeled after some civilian version? Also I think the faux XM16E1 might be based on the same M16A1 "Retro Reissue" from BO3/4. --Nanomat (talk) 09:52, 31 August 2020 (EDT)

We'll see about that. Maybe they will make some changes in final game, you never know. --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 10:13, 1 September 2020 (EDT)

More Weapons!

--Treliazz (talk) 13:51, 1 September 2020 (EDT) I see the M16A2, finally!!! The AK47, a shotgun which I believe is either the Stevens Model 77E or the Winchester Model 1200 (I hope).--Treliazz (talk) 14:05, 1 September 2020 (EDT)

I'm blind, I look closely and it looks like a bolt-action rifle. Possibly the Remington 700.--Treliazz (talk) 14:26, 1 September 2020 (EDT)

There's also a Beretta 93R on the gun wall. Also nice to see that the M16A2 gets a nice carry handle optic mount instead of lazily slapping a flat top upper on it like the Commando--Aidoru (talk) 14:41, 1 September 2020 (EDT)

CAR-15 Variants

Now the only reason why I'm doing this is because I have have a feeling that they are going to add some stuffs for the Commando, and possibly the M16A2 soon as gunsmith attachments, so I want to make sure you guys got the whole CAR-15 variants right.

M16A1 Carbine - They are 4 types of M16A1. The first two models are the Colt 651 and 652. These guns have an M16 fix stock rather then a XM177 stock, and it has a 16.5 inch barrel. It was mad in 1971, and later around the early 70s, Colt made the 653 and 654, which have a XM177 stock. Now remember, these guns could have a 14.5 inch barrel, and they have an A1 pistol grip.

Colt 653

XM4 Carbine - Now, if you know me, you know that I love the M4 sense I first know about guns, but I'm not going to be like back then and name every single AR-15 carbine the M4. The XM4 was first made in 1983 from the US Army as a XM177E2 with an A1 flash hider and it fires M16A2 rounds. In January 1984, the gun have a 14.5 inch barrel and a A2 pistol grip. Later in 1985, the USMC tested the XM4, and in 1986, they add the M16A2 receiver to keep it as a modern designed, consider that they are a huge fan of the M16A2 rifle. In May 1986, Colt made a new M4 barrel and a new M4 handguard, and test results were not really good at the time. Colt ignore the XM4 until 1990, when Bushmaster joined the XM4 Program. In 1991, the gun was renamed the M4 Carbine, and in 1993, the gun have a flattop and it fires full-auto making it the M4A1. So basically the M4 is a modern version of the XM177E2. There are a lot of mythical stories about the XM4.

January 1984 - XM4 Carbine

M16A2 Carbine - Also known as the Colt 723, this weapon was made around 1985, but it didn't appear in service until 1987. Here's some myths that people are saying. The Colt 723 came from the XM177E2, which is not true. It actually came from the M16A1 Carbine. This weapon was very popular of the Delta forces, and it was used in the Invasion of Panama. A short version called the Colt 733 also consider to be a M16A2 carbine.

Colt 723

M16A2 Government Carbine - Also known as the Colt 727. Okay, first of, the Colt 727 is not the father of the M4 or M4A1. The XM4 is even older than the Colt 727, because this gun was made in 1988, 4 years after the XM4 was made. I don't get why people are saying the Colt 727 is the father of the XM4! It's not! it's a improve variant of the Colt 723. Now then, mini rant out of the way, it does looks similar to the XM4, but here's the different. It fires full-automatic. The XM4 fires three-round burst. This could be not historically accurate, consider that the game take place in the early 80s.

Colt 727

So there you go, the CAR-15 variants. Now you know about these weapons, and now you know how can we describe these guns. Like I said, I'm only doing this because of gunsmith attachments refence, so I hope you guys get all of these and understand what we going to see for this year's Call of Duty.--Treliazz (talk) 13:58, 2 September 2020 (EDT)

For more AR variants we also have the Colt AR-15 Identification Guide. As for why people talk about the 727 leading to the M4, I think this is sort of true as I believe that the first AR variant that introduced the "M4" profile barrel was actually the 727. Before that the XM4 prototypes had either a straight barrel, or a stepped barrel that was thicker at the front but still narrow in front of the front sight. Also, part of this lore about the 727 probably comes from the fact that at its inception the XM4 was intended as a rear echelon weapon not intended for front line combat troops, but a lot of special forces used the 723 and 727 and got a lot of utility from it so when the M4 was finalised it was as a front line combat weapon. --commando552 (talk) 13:55, 10 September 2020 (EDT)

Leaked Multiplayer Alpha Footage

From the official Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/blackopscoldwar/comments/imaxuo/full_6_minute_gameplay_of_cold_war/

From the given footage shown there’s the AKS-74U (as “AK-74U”), the M16A2 (as “M16”), the MP5A2 (as “MP5”), the CAR-15 (as the “XM4” with flat-top receiver wrapped in slings like the Commando from BO1), the Stoner 63 and the SPAS-12 (as “Gallo 12”). In-game names aren’t necessarily final and may change in the final game like in COD:WWII and MW (2019). --MJ79 (talk) 01:28, 5 September 2020 (EDT)

I'm actually pretty excited, proper AKS-74u barrel/handguard/sight, jungle mags, the gun audio seems nice and punchy, and the animations don't seem too bad either. Foregrip on that CAR-15 looks like a BCM Gunfighter vertical grip though, which is about 30 years too early, lol.--Aidoru (talk) 04:22, 5 September 2020 (EDT)

It looks alright for an early leak, though I have little doubt that it'll be getting more polish before it gets released. Also, for those who actually have social media, would you mind spamming IW to please put an "S" in "AKS-74U"? I know it's a minor thing and all, but still... gives me conniptions. Pyr0m4n14c (talk) 11:41, 5 September 2020 (EDT)

In this case it's Treyarch, although IW were the first ones guilty of that with their weird airsoft shorty AK. But no matter how many times people tell them such things, I doubt the devs will care. It would also be appreciated if they learn to properly capitalize the "U". --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 07:19, 9 September 2020 (EDT)

One thing that I’m considering about

There’s a attachment for the M16A2, and it showcases a 14.5 inch barrel with an Colt 607 handguard. It is that an AR-15 type variant or maybe an weird bizarre XM4 (1986 model) with an Colt 607 handguard, or it a some type of Colt Government AR-15 weapon, but considering that it has a 14.5 inch barrel, it’s not right.--Treliazz (talk) 09:51, 10 September 2020 (EDT)

If it has a 607 handguard but is not a 607 or 607A it is made up, pretty sure that handguard is unique to those models. Do you have a link to a picture of it? --commando552 (talk) 13:51, 10 September 2020 (EDT)

That’s all I have, but I do have a screenshot on my phone, but it’s not jpg.--Treliazz (talk) 14:47, 10 September 2020 (EDT)

That isn't a "real" 607 handguard, to me it looks like they just cut the front half off of an M16A1 model to make something carbine-ish. Firstly, this has 5 vent holes whereas a 607 has 6. Secondly, a real 607 handguard has a new collar piece at the rear as they were made from cut down A1 handguards so they needed to give them a new back end, but the pictured handguard just looks like the rear of a factory A1 handguard. --commando552 (talk) 13:43, 11 September 2020 (EDT)

I had to say for now that this is a XM4 with a A1 handguard, but then we need to see the full game or at least the beta to see if the gun is going to equip with an attachment that is a CAR-15 telescopic but stock, or else this gun will be a bizarre XM4 Carbine. The gun have a 14.5 inch barrel and it’s a three round burst.--Treliazz (talk) 17:06, 11 September 2020 (EDT)

Here you can get a better look at the pseudo carbine handguard. --Nanomat (talk) 22:02, 11 September 2020 (EDT)

It's like the developers for these games don't understand the time period. I want to use something that looks like Larry Vicker's Delta Carbine, not this bullshit Excalibur01 (talk) 12:32, 12 September 2020 (EDT)

"would've been a better choice"

I'm just gonna say this out loud right here: I don't think these "better alternatives" information are necessary. The page should document why a gun is inapprorpiate within the game' setting, but it has no need to try to offer "possible solutions" to "rectify" these errors. --Wuzh (talk) 08:57, 18 September 2020 (EDT)

I concur with this sentiment. As much as it is "neat" to see what could've been used instead of what they did, it's clear they don't know nor care. More than likely this game is going to go Modern Warfare's route of using Franken-guns to make sure they DO NOT get sued. Even though they won that court case, I doubt Activision is in the mood to repeat history on something like that again. Just bite the bullet and deal with the anachronisms and Franken-guns and move on. PaperCake 10:38, 18 September 2020 (EST)

Eh, I always thought that it was neat as information/trivia, but if the court of public opinion says no, then I won't start a fight over it. Better to keep the peace in situations like this. (Even if I still firmly believe that the M2 Carbine is an assault rifle...) Pyr0m4n14c (talk) 15:03, 18 September 2020 (EDT)

Well, if the M2 Carbine thing hasn't been settled yet, I suggest that you directly message an admin (such as commando552) and ask their opinion about it :P --Ultimate94ninja (talk) 16:13, 18 September 2020 (EDT)

Seeing as how .30 carbine is pretty much on par with .357 magnum in terms of ballistics out of a rifle length barrel, I don't think you can reasonably argue it is an intermediate calibre. As there are pistols that are chambered in .30 carbine (real pistols, not Enforcer type things) you could argue it would be an SMG, but it isn't really that either. Perhaps it is an intermediate-intermediate cartridge, between pistol round like 9x19mm and true intermediate cartridges like 7.92×33mm Kurz. It is sort of an odd one out, if you want to throw a name on it you can call it a light rifle or machine carbine. Most people that argue that the M1/M2 is an assault rifle are people trying to argue that the US invented the assault rifle, in the same way that people claiming the Federov is an assault rifle want the Russians to have invented it. As a general rule, if something is accidentally an "assault rifle" using a broad deffintiion that came decades later, then it isn't really an assault rifle, e.g. the Burton 1917 LMR. --commando552 (talk) 18:26, 18 September 2020 (EDT)

Expanding on that thought, one could say the M2 is a PDW (P90, MP7 style) in exactly the same way the Burton or Federov are Assault Rifles: They mostly fit, but predate the actual design concept/intent by too much time to really be considered those types. Alex T Snow (talk) 19:59, 18 September 2020 (EDT)

Eh, I wouldn't say that; the M2 was intended as a sort of early PDW, but that's more a role than a true class of firearm (being filled by both SMGs and compact assault rifles; even pistols were used early on); I wouldn't really say that the term/category not existing at the time would make it not an assault rifle, as by that logic the Villar Perosa and MP18 wouldn't be SMGs, the MKb-42 wouldn't be an assault rifle, etc. - if it fits the technical definition, then that's what it is (otherwise, you could argue that the AK was an SMG because it predates the concept of an assault rifle in Russian doctrine and was originally intended to take the role of an SMG, and that's not a can of worms we should be opening). I'd argue that "physically possible to make a pistol in" isn't exactly a rule-out for a rifle cartridge; for instance, while there are pistols in .30 Carbine (that aren't single-shot breechloaders or revolvers, since that would open the door for anything up to .50 BMG), I'd argue that any of those could just as easily be chambered in, say, 7.92x33mm Kurz (which has only a slightly longer OAL) and have roughly the same level of reliability and practicality (i.e. not great); hell, if we throw in more modern technology, you could probably make a functional pistol in 4.73x33mm Caseless, or that 5.56x45mm CT round from the LSAT program. It's definitely edge-case, but if we're trying to be internally consistent, then we'd have to either move the M1 Carbine out of the "Rifle/Intermediate Caliber" section of Category:Carbine and into the "Pistol-Caliber" section, definitively call .30 Carbine an intermediate cartridge (which would make the M2 an assault rifle), or make up some "intermediate-intermediate" category that would really just cause more problems than it solved. Pyr0m4n14c (talk) 20:10, 18 September 2020 (EDT)

This discussion is totally irrelevent to this page so I won't go too far down the rabbit hole, but I will just point out that you are ignoring the most important aspect, which is the cartridge. As I said, the .30 carbine is basically equivalent to a .357 magnum out of a carbine/rifle length barrel. Would a full auto .357 be an assault rifle by your definition? Do the Thompson SMGs that Auto Ordnance made chambered in .30 carbine become assault rifles? If not, then neither is an M2. --commando552 (talk) 20:34, 18 September 2020 (EDT)

Right I'm going to drift back into this debate since I came back to this intensive debate. While I get the point of calling the M2 Carbine a PDW given both the role of the M1 Carbine originally as well as the intermediate nature of the .30 Carbine caliber, I wouldn't go that far down the rabbit hole. The M1 and M2 Carbine weren't issued in the same sense as assault rifles, and realistically trying to push them into the mindset of either an SMG or a assault rifle is not entirely right. The military designation has it as a carbine, even with the selector switch. As a resutl, I'd say keep it in the rifle section. It's just a rifle with select fire capability, but it's not entirely an assault rifle. --PaperCake 22:11, 18 September 2020 (EST)